PDA

View Full Version : Raphael alternative (Flash)



Mycoding
4 Jun 2011, 9:12 PM
Sencha, please think more over about Raphael Alternativa.
I mean that developer could use flash version of charts and Raphael.

Please do like in http://www.amcharts.com/

I very like Raphael, but Raphael is based on svg/vml.
As all know SVG/VML is very slow.

mitchellsimoens
5 Jun 2011, 7:00 AM
amcharts.com loaded the charts slowly for me

tobiu
5 Jun 2011, 7:20 AM
@Mycoding:



As all know SVG is very slow.


Thats completely nonsense. It depends a lot on the usecase.
For initial drawing, canvas is a bit faster, but when changing the data SVG will be better.

Flash has no place inside this framework IMHO.

So, if you prefer using amcharts, just build a wrapper class and use them.
Really no big deal :)


best regards
tobiu

Mycoding
5 Jun 2011, 7:54 AM
Sorry me.
But that svg/vml is very slow is true.
I did about 10 works on Raphael.

To assure you please look at this sample in IE6(Of course IE6 is bad sample, but
svg/vml works much worste than flash)
http://vreshenie.ru/work/svg/map/16.html

P.S:
I very like Raphael, but in fact it is slow.

Ekambos
5 Jun 2011, 11:28 AM
@Tobiu
Why does Flash have no place in this framework ?
It s funny how people are now bashing Flash.
Without flash this framework would not be where it is now. Atleast when it comes to charting.

I think having a Flash and a JS based chart API and letting the user choose is the right way to go.

tobiu
5 Jun 2011, 1:14 PM
@Ekambos: don't get me wrong, I don't say that you should not use flash, I just Sencha should build a Flash component for charting. It is really sad that they lost Dimitri (the Raphael guy) after such a short time. The team should focus at what they are good at: building Javascript components.

You can still use the YUI charts (which still have more beautiful animation when it comes to transitions between different store items or just resizing the panel). This is something the users should focus on if they like to: building wrapper classes for 3rd party components.



Best regards and don't miss the next Munich meetup ;)
tobiu

mitchellsimoens
5 Jun 2011, 1:26 PM
What is the bigger picture here... Will Flash be around forever? Maybe, maybe not. So to have a built-in solution is what is needed for the long run. Tobiu says the Flash chart has better transitional animations... maybe. SVG and VML may be slower right now but it will get better... most things do. It may become as good or better than Flash but having no dependencies I feel is the right direction. Look at what Raphael has brought to the table... Ext.draw.*. What can you do now that you couldn't when there was Flash charts? Not only can you now draw charts but you can now draw pictures and stuff using the same code that runs under the Ext JS 4 charts. Flash charting didn't give us that capability.

Not ever part of everything is perfect... or is ever going to be. From what I have noticed, things start off a little rough around the edges and it gets better. Some things take longer than other things. Just my experience in the last almost 15 years of programming.

These are my opinions and this post does not represent Sencha's opinion or direction.

Ekambos
5 Jun 2011, 1:46 PM
@Mitchell
having a built-in solution is definitly the right move.
But that does not mean drop flash, since you still can have both and let the user choose the right solution for him.
Flash has made you successfull and droping it now will force some people(like myself) to rewrite everything while migrating to EXT-JS 4. And our chart code base is really huge.
There are still some things that you can do with Flash that you can not do with a JS based solution(for now). One of them beeing exporting charts to PDF on the client. In our application we have users generating reports every 30 seconds. By doing that on the client our server was very happy. We EXT4 we cant export any chart to PDF on the client.
The Flash chart API was really good. You could have kept it there instead of taking it out completely.

mitchellsimoens
5 Jun 2011, 2:09 PM
But that does not mean drop flash, since you still can have both and let the user choose the right solution for him.
Flash has made you successfull and droping it now will force some people(like myself) to rewrite everything while migrating to EXT-JS 4. And our chart code base is really huge.

I would have to respectfully disagree. There are many parts of the framework that has made it successful. Charts were just one part that helped the framework reach the success it has thus far. Could we have kept both, maybe. I'm not sure if they just wanted to go forward with the SVG/VML solution and not look back or maybe it was working with a 3rd party dependency that wouldn't work well with the new data package. Also note that the new charting package is part of Sencha Platform so it is to be shared between Ext JS 4+ and Sencha Touch 2+. Huge benefit right there. Yes Android supports Flash but iOS does not and probably will never.


There are still some things that you can do with Flash that you can not do with a JS based solution(for now). One of them beeing exporting charts to PDF on the client. In our application we have users generating reports every 30 seconds. By doing that on the client our server was very happy. We EXT4 we cant export any chart to PDF on the client.
The Flash chart API was really good. You could have kept it there instead of taking it out completely.

I can understand your concern. I have never worked with VML so I cannot say about that but you can get to the SVG's source easily and with JS you can even automatically serve it up to download the SVG. SVG is not displayable in every computer but you can achieve the same thing with a little extra work.

mitchellsimoens
5 Jun 2011, 2:10 PM
BTW I know at Sencha, we enjoy this kind of user feedback. The community has come up with good points and some really sweet inventions. Feedback like this helps us move in what we think is the right direction.

Ekambos
5 Jun 2011, 2:21 PM
would have to respectfully disagree. There are many parts of the framework that has made it successful. Charts were just one part that helped the framework reach the success it has thus far. Could we have kept both, maybe. I'm not sure if they just wanted to go forward with the SVG/VML solution and not look back or maybe it was working with a 3rd party dependency that wouldn't work well with the new data package. Also note that the new charting package is part of Sencha Platform so it is to be shared between Ext JS 4+ and Sencha Touch 2+. Huge benefit right there. Yes Android supports Flash but iOS does not and probably will never.

You are right. I was talking about the charting part of the framework. Off course EXT-JS is more then charting. But for the charting part Flash has made you really successfull i would say.
Maybe you guyz had to drop flash support because of some redesign you made. And i understand that. But that decision is given me some hard work right now :)



I can understand your concern. I have never worked with VML so I cannot say about that but you can get to the SVG's source easily and with JS you can even automatically serve it up to download the SVG. SVG is not displayable in every computer but you can achieve the same thing with a little extra work.

I still cant get that SVG to PDF on the client can i ?

mitchellsimoens
5 Jun 2011, 2:28 PM
You are right. I was talking about the charting part of the framework. Off course EXT-JS is more then charting. But for the charting part Flash has made you really successfull i would say.
Maybe you guyz had to drop flash support because of some redesign you made. And i understand that. But that decision is given me some hard work right now :)

Little hard work never hurt you! :) Puts hair on your chest!


I still cant get that SVG to PDF on the client can i ?

Not that I have found but a web browser can view them.

Ekambos
5 Jun 2011, 2:42 PM
Little hard work never hurt you! :) Puts hair on your chest!
Yeah but as for EXT4 the client side PDF generation is not available anymore. Now we need to think how to scale the server to serve all the requests, wich is more expensive then generating the reports on the client.

I understand that because of iOs a lot of people are rethinking the use of Flash. But there are still other devices out there though and like i said before flash does provide some features that JS does not. So a fair move would have been to let me choose if i want to drop flash or not instead of taking the decision away from me.

mitchellsimoens
5 Jun 2011, 2:44 PM
For your use, it may be needed to create a custom wrapper to still use YUI charts. Could be a better route than upgrading servers which can add up very fast.

Ekambos
5 Jun 2011, 2:52 PM
it may be needed to create a custom wrapper to still use YUI charts. Could be a better route than upgrading servers which can add up very fast.
Yeah i think that s the move we will make.
If EXT4 was not that great i would be really pissed at you right now for giving me this extra work :)

mitchellsimoens
5 Jun 2011, 2:54 PM
Yeah i think that s the move we will make.
If EXT4 was not that great i would be really pissed at you right now for giving me this extra work :)

lol Thank you for not being pissed off. It would have been easy for you to but your choose not too. We just gave you some job security :)

mitchellsimoens
5 Jun 2011, 2:55 PM
Another point you can make at your company is if you make it, may get paid from other people wanting it. Not sure what kind of company but post it in the user extensions and get some marketing out of it.

Mycoding
5 Jun 2011, 8:22 PM
Another point you can make at your company is if you make it, may get paid from other people wanting it. Not sure what kind of company but post it in the user extensions and get some marketing out of it.

I am not sure that understand you right?
You mean some additional extentions and plugins (of users and Sencha team ) for additional costs?
If yes I am absolutely agree with you.
As for me I am ready to pay.
For example I need some cute themes. In fact at the moment in ExtJS 3.x there are only one
cute theme - gray theme.
Sorry but this is true, dark theme is really ugly.
Blue theme doesn't look so good like gray.
I know that there are some sites like this http://extthemes.com/#themesAndBundles by tobiu.
I look at themes from his site and I don't like them.
I don't know why but they are not attractive and cute for me, sorry for my honesty.

I very want themes like in Ubuntu,KDE,MacOS,Windows Vista and so on.
I am ready to pay for them 300-500$ but there is one VERY IMPORTANT EXCEPTION.
I can't just use Windows Vista theme like here
http://demo.tomatocart.com/admin/
Username: admin
Password: admin

Cause I need all be ligal. I do a request to Microsoft about their theme in ExtJS Vista Theme.
And of course they say that to use their theme is not ligal.
I need some very cute themes without problem of ligacy.

In fact from Sencha I was waiting that they do
1 - More cute themes
2 - Much reach Charts
3 - Possibility to fx on components.I mean fx with Ext.Window. Like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVYwEGsJueA

I did it in ExtJS 3.x but it works not as I want to.

Several month ago when I look at Sencha blog.
I think that they do exactly what I write.
http://gliffer.ru/upload/content/229e1974d4f4ced9edbb9f2efe674266.png

But I was wrong.
For me ExtJS 4.x fails.
Sorry but I will not use it.

Where new theming, where faster perfomance as it was annonced?
I was very frustrated of ExtJS 4.x

Please forgive me for honesty, but I write all as is.
I wish to Sencha all the best. That's why I write all that.

Mycoding
5 Jun 2011, 8:33 PM
About charts look at this
http://st.free-lance.ru/users/mycoding/upload/f_4deb9be7e3c17.png
http://st.free-lance.ru/users/mycoding/upload/f_4deb9c0af134e.png

It is done on amcharts.
I was waiting exactly this.

Somebody said that amcharts is also slow.
In amcharts there are several ways to use of them.

JavaScript Charts
Flash Charts
JavaScript Charts/Flash Charts
Flash Charts/JavaScript Charts

For JavaScript Charts is used Raphael. I am sure you look at javascript samples.
So you understand why it is so slow, cause svg/vml.
In Flash chart all is okey.
Look at this
http://flex.amcharts.com/lib/examples/homePage.swf

Mycoding
5 Jun 2011, 8:48 PM
I addition I want to say that it would great if on ExtJS will be done
several types of CMS and it will be possible to buy them at Sencha.
I know about ModX Revolution, TomatoCarts and some other.
All of theme is not so what I expect.

In fact I would use TomatoCarts if it hasn't problem with legacy and wasn't done on WebDesktop.
Web Desktop is also from legacy issue.

mitchellsimoens
6 Jun 2011, 5:10 AM
@Mycoding What I meant is that you can release a plugin/extension and get paid for it. You would get a lot of views if you post in the User Extensions forum that you made it with some screenshots and then go to a page where they would have to buy it from you to get that functionality. I personally open source everything using MIT license mainly but I have seen others sell their stuff.

jamesgpearce
6 Jun 2011, 7:55 AM
Have you explored the new Ext.Draw module in Ext4?

http://www.sencha.com/blog/ext-js-4-preview-drawing-and-charting/

mschwartz
6 Jun 2011, 9:01 AM
Shameless plug:

http://zingchart.com

Mycoding
6 Jun 2011, 10:20 AM
Shameless plug:

http://zingchart.com

Very cute ))))
Is it yours?

Do you know some other "Shameless plug"?)))

mschwartz
6 Jun 2011, 12:51 PM
Very cute ))))
Is it yours?

Do you know some other "Shameless plug"?)))

My company sells zingchart. There is an Ext.Zingchart wrapper (Panel, Window, etc.) for the charts, so you can drop them right in for Sencha Touch and ExtJS applications (Ext 3 only at this time).

mitchellsimoens
6 Jun 2011, 12:55 PM
My company sells zingchart. There is an Ext.Zingchart wrapper (Panel, Window, etc.) for the charts, so you can drop them right in for Sencha Touch and ExtJS applications (Ext 3 only at this time).

Exactly what I was talking about. Create something and you can make money from it!