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    Quote Originally Posted by brian428 View Post
    Try to load Gmail or Facebook or any other JavaScript-heavy app with that setup and you'll see the same thing. Congratulations, you just confirmed that a WinXP, IE7, single CPU system is slow to load advanced HTML RIAs. What a revelation.
    So having a form with a single tab with 15 comboboxes on it is advanced HTML? Because that form takes 2-3s to load in IE7 with ExtJS. I can create that exact form with other javascript libraries and it will render 300% faster. And you still haven't answered why ExtJS 3.4 is faster when ExtJS 4.x is supposely an "upgrade". Frameworks shouldn't get worst with each major release. In the case of 4.x, it did in terms of performance and stability. Those issues overshadows any new functionalities provided in 4.x. Please stop defending ExtJS 4.x; you are just wasting your time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jchau View Post
    And you still haven't answered why ExtJS 3.4 is faster when ExtJS 4.x is supposely an "upgrade". Frameworks shouldn't get worst with each major release. In the case of 4.x, it did in terms of performance and stability.
    I think you're just trolling now. ExtJS 4 is "slower" because it does a lot more, and the average hardware it runs on is much faster. By your absurd logic, every software upgrade that runs slower on old hardware than the last version did is "worse"? So OS X is worse than Mac OS 9? Windows 7 is worse than Windows95? iOS 7 is worse than iOS 4? Battlefield 4 is worse than Battlefield 1942? Please. You're just making yourself look silly now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian428 View Post
    I think you're just trolling now. ExtJS 4 is "slower" because it does a lot more, and the average hardware it runs on is much faster. By your absurd logic, every software upgrade that runs slower on old hardware than the last version did is "worse"? So OS X is worse than Mac OS 9? Windows 7 is worse than Windows95? iOS 7 is worse than iOS 4? Battlefield 4 is worse than Battlefield 1942? Please. You're just making yourself look silly now.
    Those new OS and new games have new minimum requirements. Sencha promotes their product to support IE6+ so yes, I expect an upgrade to perform similar in performance. If an software upgrade is slower on old hardware, the company should RELEASE that info AHEAD of time. It should be made clear that the software will have performance issues on these specs. My biggest issue is that I firmly believe there are things that Sencha can be doing to address performance issues but they are not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian428 View Post
    I think you're just trolling now. ExtJS 4 is "slower" because it does a lot more, and the average hardware it runs on is much faster. By your absurd logic, every software upgrade that runs slower on old hardware than the last version did is "worse"? So OS X is worse than Mac OS 9? Windows 7 is worse than Windows95? iOS 7 is worse than iOS 4? Battlefield 4 is worse than Battlefield 1942? Please. You're just making yourself look silly now.

    Your comparisons are absurd, we are talking about a software framework here, not OS's or video games. I think an apt comparison would be JVM, CLR or the Chromium JS engine. Those things are constantly performing better and new features are being added.

    Ext4 doing a lot more is debatable, you can produce the same guis in 3 that you can do with 4 and I am assuming that goes the same for Ext 2 as well. I want to say that from Ext 1-3 the performance constantly got better, Ext4 is much slower but to be fair it is still has time to catch up. I wish I had a link to a graph I saw a while back which plotted all Ext 1-4 stuff out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jchau View Post
    Those new OS and new games have new minimum requirements. Sencha promotes their product to support IE6+ so yes, I expect an upgrade to perform similar in performance. If an software upgrade is slower on old hardware, the company should RELEASE that info AHEAD of time. It should be made clear that the software will have performance issues on these specs.
    Then your expectation is simply unrealistic. iOS 6 will run on an iPhone 3GS. Does it perform the same as iOS 4? No. Is this obvious? Yes. Does Apple make special announcements pointing out this obvious fact? No.

    The same is true for any software. Just because something meets the minimum requirements does not mean everyone should expect it to perform the same as a prior version on the same hardware. As far as I'm concerned, this is so obvious that it's rhetorical.

    Quote Originally Posted by jchau View Post
    My biggest issue is that I firmly believe there are things that Sencha can be doing to address performance issues but they are not.
    No argument from me on this. There are always things that can and should be improved. But this is a completely different sentiment than acting shocked to find out that Ext JS 4 is slower than Ext JS 3 on the same hardware. Considering that the browser share of IE 6 is only 6%, it's actually amazing that they even support it. Especially given all the workarounds and shims required to let it work at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian428 View Post
    Then your expectation is simply unrealistic. iOS 6 will run on an iPhone 3GS. Does it perform the same as iOS 4? No. Is this obvious? Yes. Does Apple make special announcements pointing out this obvious fact? No.

    The same is true for any software. Just because something meets the minimum requirements does not mean everyone should expect it to perform the same as a prior version on the same hardware. As far as I'm concerned, this is so obvious that it's rhetorical.

    No argument from me on this. There are always things that can and should be improved. But this is a completely different sentiment than acting shocked to find out that Ext JS 4 is slower than Ext JS 3 on the same hardware. Considering that the browser share of IE 6 is only 6%, it's actually amazing that they even support it. Especially given all the workarounds and shims required to let it work at all.
    You keep using OS as an example when it's not even close to what ExtJS is. This is the first time I have someone argues that new software / toolkit should be slower. WTF? I give up.

    If Sencha flat out said, we are dropping IE6 support to make our software better, I think everyone would rejoice. At least we know what to expect and make our decision to upgrade based on that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plleeuwm View Post
    Your comparisons are absurd, we are talking about a software framework here, not OS's or video games. I think an apt comparison would be JVM, CLR or the Chromium JS engine. Those things are constantly performing better and new features are being added.
    The JVM, CLR, and V8 engine are not software frameworks. They are runtime engines. They do a very, very specific set of tasks, and have no dependency on other subsystems like graphical rendering. They get faster between versions because those very specific tasks get optimized. But WHAT they run is still subject to the speed of the hardware. If a Java JSF application is completely rebuilt, adding a lot of features and flexibility, it will run more slowly than the last version of the application on the same hardware. Because hardware speed is always increasing, this is normally expected and is not an issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian428 View Post
    The JVM, CLR, and V8 engine are not software frameworks. They are runtime engines. They do a very, very specific set of tasks, and have no dependency on other subsystems like graphical rendering. They get faster between versions because those very specific tasks get optimized. But WHAT they run is still subject to the speed of the hardware. If a Java JSF application is completely rebuilt, adding a lot of features and flexibility, it will run more slowly than the last version of the application on the same hardware. Because hardware speed is always increasing, this is normally expected and is not an issue.
    Yes they are not frameworks but in the same way that an OS or a video game is not a framework. Still think it is a better comparison over an OS or a video game. An OS or video game has completely new set features and targets Ext 3 and 4 share the same IE6-8 targets, a 3 gui can look the same as a 4 gui.

    Check out the performance numbers of V8, they constantly get better on the SAME hardware, I expect similar numbers would show for the JVM and CLR. Not sure how you can gloss over the points that Ext got faster from 1,2,3 on the same hardware or the fact that many other frameworks and engines get faster over time on the same hardware.

    chrome-v8-graph-v3.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by plleeuwm View Post
    Still think it is a better comparison over an OS or a video game.
    It's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by plleeuwm View Post
    An OS or video game has completely new set features and targets Ext 3 and 4 share the same IE6-8 targets, a 3 gui can look the same as a 4 gui.
    Ext JS is the same in concept as an OS or a video game. They absolutely do not have a "completely new set of features and targets". They have SOME new features and targets and carry over or re-implement some existing features and targets. Exactly like Ext JS does. iOS 6 has a search feature, just like iOS 5 did. But it also has notification center features that iOS 5 did not have. Both include iPhone 3 GS in their target devices. But iOS 6 runs much slower on that hardware than iOS 5 did.

    It seems that either you're not understanding what I'm saying or you're just ignoring what I'm saying. Would it be great if Ext JS 5 were faster than Ext JS 4 on the same hardware? Of course it would. But it's very difficult to do if you're expanding or improving the features, not just UI features but underlying core things like the class system, because there's just a lot more going on under the hood that you don't even see. I'd much rather have Sencha focus on expanded UI capabilities and a more powerful class system than trying to optimize the way it runs on outdated browsers and hardware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian428 View Post
    It's not.


    Ext JS is the same in concept as an OS or a video game. They absolutely do not have a "completely new set of features and targets". They have SOME new features and targets and carry over or re-implement some existing features and targets. Exactly like Ext JS does. iOS 6 has a search feature, just like iOS 5 did. But it also has notification center features that iOS 5 did not have. Both include iPhone 3 GS in their target devices. But iOS 6 runs much slower on that hardware than iOS 5 did.

    I'm sorry I think you are trolling at this point you compared Windows7 and Win 95. You completely ignored the point of V8 getting faster and Ext 1,2,3 getting progressively faster but able to produce same gui's but I don't expect you to address those points because you can't.


    Quote Originally Posted by brian428 View Post
    not just UI features but underlying core things like the class system, because there's just a lot more going on under the hood that you don't even see.

    Yes stuff has changed under the hood, the class system is nicer but the layout system is much more complicated under the hood and slower.


    Quote Originally Posted by brian428 View Post
    I'd much rather have Sencha focus on expanded UI capabilities and a more powerful class system than trying to optimize the way it runs on outdated browsers and hardware.

    Agreed, I wish they didn't bastardize the entire code base to support old platforms and technologies (Tables everywhere for layout and IE switch statements). Also keep in mind that 4.2 is slower than 3 in Chrome, FF and other browsers not just IE.