1. #211
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    Default Beg to differ with Animal

    Beg to differ with Animal


    I'm very enthusiastic about the designer, and I see it as fundamental to moving EXT forward. I suspect that this has to do with my many years of experience with Visual Basic, which a reasonable model for an effective form-based development IDE. Powerful form designers are not only a tool for beginners. If they are well designed, they provide WYSIWYG functionality that speeds development.

    EXT's forms and widgets use specifications that are very readable. That said, use of the various properties is not always evident. Intelli-sense (or whatever it is called in Aptana) can make discovery of attributes simpler, and help content can enhance developer's understanding of the attributes. But there is no substitute for a live environment that immediately reflects changes in the values of the attributes. So in my opinion, having an EXT designer should make it not only easier for a beginner to get started with EXT, but should be an excellent resource for those of us with an ongoing need to design and tweak new and existing user interfaces.

    From what I have seen in the excellent demonstrations of the designer, it will have the power to take EXT from being a JS library to a level of being a programming environment with a built-in IDE. It should be noted that although VB forms were supported by an underlying text-based specification, there was no capability for editing those specifications prior to VB.net, and well over 3 million programmers dealt with that product even before forums became available through the Internet. Dynamic drag-and-drop, resizing, and property modification was self-evident in that product and appears to be the characteristic in the new EXT designer. To the extent that the designer ends up being incapable of supporting advanced EXT programming, the right answer should be to enhance the designer, not to require that the developer resort to manual changes of the specifications. If Jack follows that philosophy, he'll be able to enlist large numbers of application programmers who initially find EXT impenetrable and just want to get their applications developed.

    - Bill Eisner

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    Sencha - Architect Dev Team aconran's Avatar
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    Default Code Generation

    Code Generation


    I'd like to post a preview of what the code generation capabilities will look like out of the designer. I've built a simple nested border layout in the designer and then exported it to code. I named the class MyApp.MyPanel and gave it an xtype of "mypanel".



    The designer generated 2 separate files:

    ui/MyPanel.js
    Code:
    //-----------------------------------------------
    // AutoGenerated by Ext Designer - Do NOT Edit //
    //-----------------------------------------------
    Ext.ns('MyApp.ui');
    MyApp.ui.MyPanel = Ext.extend(Ext.Panel, {
       title: "Basic Nested Border Layout",
       width: 400,
       height: 400,
       layout: "border",
       initComponent: function() {
          this.items = [
             {
                xtype: "panel",
                region: "center",
                layout: "border",
                border: false,
                items: [
                   {
                      xtype: "panel",
                      title: "Center Region",
                      region: "center"
                   },
                   {
                      xtype: "panel",
                      title: "Detail Panel",
                      region: "south",
                      height: 150
                   }
                ]
             },
             {
                xtype: "panel",
                title: "West Region",
                region: "west",
                width: 120
             }
          ];
          MyApp.ui.MyPanel.superclass.initComponent.call(this);
       }
    });
    MyPanel.js
    Code:
    MyApp.MyPanel = Ext.extend(MyApp.ui.MyPanel, {
        
    });
    Ext.reg("mypanel", MyApp.MyPanel);

    The ui/MyPanel.js file will be regenerated each time you make a change to the user interface and save it within the designer. The designer will create MyPanel.js the first time, but will not modify it afterwards. Note that I could have added ref's, itemId's or id's within the designer and they would have been included in the generated MyApp.ui.MyPanel allowing you to access the child items. I would then add any additional methods and event handlers that I wanted within MyApp.MyPanel.

    We also have a concept of being able to "Promote" a widget into a class. For example say we had added a grid to the center region of our border layout. We could then right click on the grid in the Component Inspector of the Designer, choose "Promote to Class". A dialog would then prompt you for the name of the class and the xtype you'd like to give the new class. For our example, let's use MyApp.ProductGrid and "productgrid". The Designer would create a new top level component named MyApp.ProductGrid and would then replace the instance of the gridpanel with an instance of the productgrid.
    Aaron Conran
    @aconran
    Sencha Architect Development Team

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    Exclamation extjs designer pricing

    extjs designer pricing


    @Dave, iamleppert
    Where do you get those figures ($ 150-200) from?
    I agree with you that €200,- yearly won't make any sense to most of the web developers. Clients are inclined to compare the prices with the other software products they own, with the conclusion being that the extjs designer has an extremely low value/cost ratio by comparison.

    Like @jcgarcia said, there is also a comparison to be made between the time savings and the investment. That is of course a very valid consideration.
    Some remarks:
    1. You'll need to pay upfront each year, while not everybody knows if this is going to pay back. The amount of work involved with extjs might fluctuate, probably not every web project will be an ext-js project.
    2. The designer is not necessary and since $200 is beyond the psychological barrier, people will hesitate or resist to invest in the software.
    3. People prefer ownership above renting.
    4. tolerance of low value/cost ratio is low, especially amongst developers that use the biggest free systems in the world (linux, eclipse, thunderbird, ...)


    I don't say that ext-js shouldn't charge $200, $500, $1000… for their designer, it is their business, and what is more lovely than running your own business.
    You all made valid observations imho. My point is that even if you are able to arrange for an user-profitable offer, clients might still refuse this offer based on other criteria.


    @aconran
    It seems like you are doing this job it in the right way. Very cool!

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    Thumbs up


    thanks a lot for this sampler.
    "Qualquer tecnologia suficientemente avançada é indistinguível da mágica" - Arthur C. Clarke
    ------------------------------------------------
    ExtJs and Java!

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    Sencha User Nash-T's Avatar
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    Default


    Nice work Aaron, et. al.
    I agree with the comparisons to VB, those were exciting days when VBX became widespread.

    Pricing/Marketing is always tricky, good luck. This has probably all ready been discussed but I think IT managers will love this designer. It lets them use non-expert developers to make UI changes after the consultant is gone. This will increase the demand for ext consultants.
    How about a open source version so developers can get familiar with it, but IT shops will still buy?

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    Ext User Dave.Sanders's Avatar
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    Default


    Quote Originally Posted by Bulle Bas View Post
    @Dave, iamleppert
    Where do you get those figures ($ 150-200) from?
    Post #155 from Abe.

    Code:
    Our initial thoughts for a Designer license with unlimited usage is 150 - 200 a year.
    I'm ASSUMING he's talking $USD, if its euros then there's no way I'm touching it for that price.

    I agree also about the own vs. rent bit. And like I said before, Ext can charge whatever they want for it - it IS their business. I just read a bunch of posts that said something like "150-200 seems fine" and I wanted to voice my opinion that it wasn't fine for everyone - in hopes that they would take that into account in their decision. (Which I'm assuming is the point of this whole thread - post some stuff for the community to see and then quietly gather up their feedback over time and then make decisions.)

    Good work on Ext Team's side, but probably just not a tool for me.

    D

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    Default


    For sure, I won't use the designer for such a price ; but, for sure, some people will.

    I know (as a developper) that it's very difficult to put a price on a product, and that the price of the designer won't ever cover the time spent on it by the Ext Team.

    Anyway, here is a very interesting document :

    http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001293.html
    Christophe Badoit
    aka Tof

    My work : Lesiteimmo.com - Unobstrusive ExtJs Powered !

  8. #218
    Sencha - Ext JS Dev Team Animal's Avatar
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    Default


    Aaron, what if you had given those three region Panels itemIds?

    Would it have created vars by those names?

    What I think would be very useful to people is if their itemIds became usable variables in the generated code.

    And also, if they could insert arbitrary script into the generated class.

    So, if perhaps, an Initialize Script property could be added for all Components, then the generated could could look like this:

    Code:
    //-----------------------------------------------
    // AutoGenerated by Ext Designer - Do NOT Edit //
    //-----------------------------------------------
    Ext.ns('MyApp.ui');
    MyApp.ui.MyPanel = Ext.extend(Ext.Panel, function () {
        var myCenter, myDetail, myWest;
        return {
            title: "Basic Nested Border Layout",
            width: 400,
            height: 400,
            layout: "border",
            initComponent: function () {
                this.items = [{
                    xtype: "panel",
                    region: "center",
                    layout: "border",
                    border: false,
                    items: [myCenter = new Ext.Panel({
                        xtype: "panel",
                        itemId: 'myCenter',
                        title: "Center Region",
                        region: "center"
                    }),
                    myDetail = new Ext.Panel({
                        xtype: "panel",
                        itemId: 'myDetail',
                        title: "Detail Panel",
                        region: "south",
                        height: 150
                    })]
                },
                myWest = new Ext.Panel({
                    xtype: "panel",
                    itemId: 'myWest',
                    title: "West Region",
                    region: "west",
                    width: 120
                })];
                MyApp.ui.MyPanel.superclass.initComponent.call(this);
    // init-script for MyPanel from XDS:
    myWest.on('expand', function() {
        myCenter.load({....});
    });
    // end init-script
            }
        }
    });
    No point in putting xtyped config objects in. You might as well just create the real objects and then keep references to them is useful vars.

  9. #219
    Sencha - Ext JS Dev Team Animal's Avatar
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    Default


    One thing I also noticed is that some configs which are only valid when a Component is a child of a certain type of container do not become available.

    For example, the title config is a config of Panel.

    But put any BoxComponent (eg a Container) in a TabPanel, and you may give it a title which the TabPanel uses. XDS does not offer this currently.

  10. #220
    Sencha - Community Support Team Condor's Avatar
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    Default


    @aconran: Why is it using initComponent instead of constructor?

    @Animal: Wouldn't your example create GLOBAL variables?

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