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elishnevsky
13 Jan 2011, 8:19 AM
If Sencha Touch is completely free, then why version 1.0.2 is available only to Sencha Support subscribers? I'm scratching my head over this one. Does anyone have an explanation?

mitchellsimoens
13 Jan 2011, 5:07 PM
The general release is completely free. They gotta make money some how so they give great support to people who buy a subscription.

elishnevsky
21 Jan 2011, 8:02 AM
The general release is completely free. They gotta make money some how so they give great support to people who buy a subscription.

I am not questioning the quality of their support. It doesn't answer my question. If Sencha Touch is free, then why is version 1.0.2, which is supposedly more stable than 1.0.1a, available only to support subscribers? I shouldn't be forced to buy support subscription to be able to get a more stable version of the framework, which is distributed for free.

mitchellsimoens
21 Jan 2011, 8:21 AM
If you had customers that paid and customers that didn't, which would you give the latest too? I have been using Ext stuff for a while now and this is just how they do it. Developers are expensive to pay.

elishnevsky
21 Jan 2011, 8:32 AM
You're missing the point. Purchasing support subscription is not the same as purchasing the product. The product is free, support is not. So I don't understand how support subscribers get the privilege to use a more stable version of a free product. And if I had declared my product as absolutely free for everyone, I would give the latest version to everyone.

mitchellsimoens
21 Jan 2011, 8:38 AM
Providing support is also fixing bugs, one can argue.

jep
21 Jan 2011, 8:38 AM
I think they really need to define a third license. I think they have one product with three licenses: GPL, Commercial and Paid. I'm sure I can't redistribute 1.0.2 to other members, so that's not quite the same license. Or can you? If so, could someone kindly send me 1.0.2? :D

The big problem I have is that this is really starting to bother me from the standpoint of bug reporting. I've been reporting a lot of bugs. A lot of other bugs have been reported. They've never been commented on. Are they fixed on 1.0.2? Who knows! Should I bother entering this bug I just found in 1.0.1a because it might already be fixed? Who knows! It's just rather frustrating. If I could get some information that I requested in the other thread, I might start trying to get my boss to fork over for the standard support. However, as far as I can tell there's no premium forum and you pay $300 to ask 4 questions that will be handled in under 3 days each.

elishnevsky
21 Jan 2011, 8:44 AM
I'm sure I can't redistribute 1.0.2 to other members, so that's not quite the same license. Or can you? If so, could someone kindly send me 1.0.2? :D

+1. Wouldn't mind that either :)

mitchellsimoens
21 Jan 2011, 9:00 AM
I'm sure I can't redistribute 1.0.2 to other members, so that's not quite the same license. Or can you? If so, could someone kindly send me 1.0.2? :D

Check out the license, can you?

jep
21 Jan 2011, 9:03 AM
4. PROHIBITED USES

You may not, without Our prior written consent, redistribute the Software or Modifications other
than by including the Software or a portion thereof within Your own product, which must have
substantially different functionality than the Software or Modifications and must not allow any
third party to use the Software or Modifications, or any portions thereof, for software development
or application development purposes. You are explicitly not allowed to redistribute the Software or
Modifications as part of any product that can be described as a development toolkit or library or is
intended for use by software developers or application developers and not end-users. You are not
allowed to redistribute any part of the Software documentation.


At least, that's what the commercial license says. I have no idea if the super-secret advance version gets its own special top secret license.

mitchellsimoens
21 Jan 2011, 9:06 AM
There you go. So you cannot redistribute 1.0.2 so I wouldn't ask for someone to do so. Just the way I roll.

jep
21 Jan 2011, 9:21 AM
I agree. Like I said before, I was pretty sure they couldn't. That's why I included the grin emoticon. It's called a joke. :D

mitchellsimoens
21 Jan 2011, 9:22 AM
I agree. Like I said before, I was pretty sure they couldn't. That's why I included the grin emoticon. It's called a joke. :D

Grin is a big smile and can be construed to be bad. Just saying, I wouldn't say things about "stealing" things on the company's forums because it can be seen as being serious and not a joke.

jep
21 Jan 2011, 9:23 AM
My advice - lighten up.

mitchellsimoens
21 Jan 2011, 9:23 AM
My advice - work with what you have and don't complain for the free stuff you do get

jep
21 Jan 2011, 9:25 AM
Where's the eyeroll emoticon?

As I'm sure you've read in my other post, I'm mainly trying to get some justification together to pay for a standard support plan, if we'll actually get significantly more support than we're getting now. Perhaps you should direct your followups on this topic to that thread, as you are already posting there anyway.

mmullany
21 Jan 2011, 12:11 PM
Well, I hope I can help you make the case for getting on support. There are four main benefits of Touch Support:

1. Getting continued bug fixes after the x.x release is the first benefit. These fixes eventually get rolled up into the next minor release, so the 1.02 bug fixes will get rolled into our 1.1 release. This is not unique to Sencha, at least some other professional open source companies (such as SpringSource) do the same thing.

2. You also get direct access to SVN, so you can see everything as it happens.

3. There is a premium support forum for Sencha Touch, and these questions get priority answering from the support team.

4. With support you also get an actual support ticket system with a response time guarantee

jep
21 Jan 2011, 12:17 PM
3. There is a premium support forum for Sencha Touch, and these questions get priority answering from the support team.

Thank you! As I said in the other thread, it was very confusing because right now you can see the Ext JS and Ext GWT premium forums listed, but you can't see any for Sencha Touch.

Also as I said in the other thread, I do fully understand the need for you to make money, as without that you're not going to be around for future support and releases. My main concern was just justifying it in terms of going to my boss and asking him for $300 and being able to answer his inevitable question "What do we get for that beyond what we get now?". Can you also confirm that the premium support forums are still hopping along, getting staff replies? I ask because there's been a noticeable drop in staff involvement in the regular help forum. Again, I'm not faulting you for that, just making sure that it's contained to the non-paid forum.

VinylFox
21 Jan 2011, 12:40 PM
Every few months or so you will notice a drop in replies from the team, this is when they are working like crazy (12-18hr days) to get a new product, feature, or major release out. Nothing to worry about.

jep
21 Jan 2011, 12:45 PM
The drop I'm talking about is for the last month and a half. I'd worry about that.

Edit: Just so I'm not misunderstood - I'd worry about that if it also happened in the Premium Support forum. For the free users, you just have to live with it.

irocker
21 Jan 2011, 4:09 PM
Just an obvservation from someone who is new to Sencha: I think it's a bad business practice to hold back bug fixes from the "free" version of the software if you are going to offer a free version to begin with. Whether you're alone in doing this or not, it doesn't really matter - I just think it's a bad idea.

Reason being, I am developing a prototype for an app right now, and how the development cycle goes and how the software performs is what's going to decide whether we use it for future development. Right now, the way it looks to my boss is that 1) the product is buggy, and 2) no one will respond to questions about it.

We have absolutely no problem with purchasing support and consider the benefits of the premium plan (performance tweaking, code review and other perks) to be well worth it - IF we have faith in the product and the support staff to begin with. Holding back bug fixes from the free version in order to get more paying customers is not a very good PR move! If you can see it from our perspective for a moment.

I really like the product in general, and maybe my introduction to it has simply come at a bad time, but I'm probably not the only one who feels this way, and a lot of potential customers have probably walked away from it altogether out of frustration, rather than take the risk of seeing what happens when they buy support.

elishnevsky
21 Jan 2011, 7:36 PM
irocker

You laid it down perfectly. I've been developing using Sencha products for more than 3 years now, but I feel the same way.

existdissolve
22 Jan 2011, 4:24 PM
I disagree. Even bug fixes have consequences, so releasing them into the wild immediately without the opportunity to 1.) make sure they resolve the PAYING customer's issue and 2.) make sure the "fix" doesn't cause other issues is what is a bad idea.

As far as your development cycle goes, well, that's the way it goes for everyone. Regardless of the application software you are using, there *are* always going to be bugs. Some get pushed in hotfixes, some get pushed in dot releases. But the point is, these things have to be done in the right way and, as crappy as it might be, when you are paying nothing for something, sometimes you just have to deal with that kind of stuff.

Finally, have you looked at the support prices? Very reasonable in the scope of operating expenses for most businesses. If your company is serious about development in *any* environment, you're either going to have to pay for licensing fees or support. That's just how it goes. If you're not comfortable working within the boundaries of how Sencha releases happen, then pony up the paltry costs for the support. If you're *worried* about the product to begin with, perhaps you should look elsewhere anyway.

If you want to do everything for free, well, it's like I say to my young daughter: "You get what you get, and don't throw a fit."

irocker
23 Jan 2011, 11:20 PM
I think you're missing the point existdissolve. I'm not trying to "do everything for free," and I don't think the support prices are unreasonable. And I understand there will always be bugs. None of these things are the issue.

There are plenty of companies who offer software with a free license but then offer paid support. There are also plenty of companies who have a separate community supported version of their product and if you want to use it for a commerical product, you have to buy a commercial license. The difference between most of them and the way Sencha apparently does things, is that the free license does have "up to the minute" releases. In fact the free version is usually newer than the commercial version because most enterprise level developers want to work with a known "stable" quantity. So by the time a product gets to a commercial release, it's been thoroughly hammered by the free user community, which benefits everyone. You're saying "make sure the 'fix' doesn't cause other issues" - so paying customers should be the guinea pigs? :D That doesn't make any sense. If Sencha has confidence that a bug has been fixed for its paying customers, there shouldn't be any worries about releasing the fix to the general community either.

Anyway, I don't want to belabor the point too much. I'm trying to be helpful by letting Sencha know what kind of perception their business model can create, when there are other only slightly different models that don't create the same perception at all.

PickPacket
11 Jun 2012, 10:27 AM
I had thought until now that Sencha Touch was exclusively a subscriber service, which is an obstacle for someone just getting started in mobile development. I was so very pleased to find out there is a free version! Frankly, it seems a bit whiny that anyone would gripe about their business model; they need to make a living somehow! I'm just happy I can get started without having to pony up any cash! Thanks to everyone who makes this available to us newcomers!

J