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  1. #11
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    The same happened to me: I reported two bugs and they have been completely ignored by now:

    Collapse state for a stateful accordion layout
    Update a model record resets attributes with persist: false

    I already started a thread Access to Git and issue tracker to complain about the issue tracker - without any success. As an active OSS contributor the lack of feedback feels very bad and not having access to a real bug tracker cost me a lot of time, since searching this forum is crap and I'm not able to quickly look up if an issue is known or not, and even when I've found something similar, the status of the issue is unsure. From a process perspective it's absolutely absurd to report issues to a forum, where they will be picked up manually and are being transfered to a real, internal issue tracker and changes are then (sometimes) again reported back to the forum. That can only be a management decision to increase payed support request!

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by skirtle View Post
    Support for old versions is dropped far too quickly in my opinion, making it hard to convince companies to adopt Sencha frameworks. Browsers change so quickly that an unsupported version is effectively useless.

    Much as I like many of the changes in ExtJS 4 I feel it tried to do too much. It's quite time consuming to upgrade and much of the functionality is unstable. Being less adventurous would have helped on both counts.
    That is exactly it. I have multiple customers on sites I wrote with Ext 2 and 3. They are under maintenance mode. What happens when things break? Upgrade to 4.x? We don't have budget for some of it, considering each site uses custom workarounds for that version.

    It is a naive company and the sign of young developers that thinks it is good marketing to boast "Re-written from scratch!" That is ok in early versions. 4.0 is not an early version. It should be the version of maturity. Graduation from kindergarten. Ext have had plenty of time to get the architecture right. So rewriting it every major release shows "something" for sure, the inability to design elegant, long-term extensibility. Will 5.0 also get a "major revamp, reworked internals" just to get new customers?

    As far as support, if you have been a commercial customer you know that Ext gives you x-credits to limit the amount of support questions you can ask. Then you lose those x-credits if you don't use them. I also use Devexpress who do not impose such limits to throttle their customers. They just give really great support no matter what.

  3. #13
    Sencha User mschwartz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LesJ View Post
    I agree with James, drawing and charting bugs get very little attention in particular.
    http://zingchart.com

    shameless plug ;-)

  4. #14
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    +1 I have also reported several bugs/issues that have gone unanswered. Instead, I see another Q&A forum added to the mix. How does adding another group address the fundamental lack of organization?

    --RANT--
    I have been using ExtJS since early 2008 and I have to say that Ext 4 has been the most difficult and time-consuming major release as of yet. The compatibility files for migrating versions were helpful but incomplete. The product was released with considerable flaws, poor performance, a lack of complete documentation, and with some previously existing functionality removed (like tree editor).

    I took a leap of faith and was an early adopter of 4.x. I regret that move. I have been so consumed with the migration, differentiating my bugs from ExtJS, and fixing any lingering compatibility changes that I have not been able to incorporate new features, like charting. And where is the Visual Unit Testing framework that Ext was demoing?

    My product is so deeply vested into ExtJS that I can't consider switching. Please Sencha, get your act together (or bring back Jack)!

    --END RANT--

    Would love to hear Sencha respond to this thread. Otherwise, they can expect it will be an over-powering topic at SenchaCon.
    Last edited by zombeerose; 24 Aug 2011 at 11:31 AM. Reason: rant

  5. #15
    Ext JS Premium Member tvanzoelen's Avatar
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    I agree with Rant. Here we are also in deep troubles migrating to ExtJs 4. I've been busy migrating for two months now. It gives my company a lot of extra costs. A lot of information is not in the documention. For example. Today I was busy migrating the trees. The treeloader wasn't in the docs, there are also still bugs, methods I used no longer exist. The used object model for the MVC architecture is questionable. UI based methods are integrated into Model part.

    It seems there is no understanding how big applications work, they were builded with ExtJs 3 , it takes a lot of affort to rebuild them in Ext Js4. I also question what happened to Jack? Where is he? He has build a framework that worked fine, we want to continue. Please Sencha, respond to these questions. People are worried right now. I have three breaking bugs and several questions standing out.

    http://www.sencha.com/forum/showthre...n-the-NodeHash
    http://www.sencha.com/forum/showthre...108#post639108
    http://www.sencha.com/forum/showthre...033#post639033

  6. #16
    Sencha Premium Member skirtle's Avatar
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    A lot of information is not in the documention.
    On a positive note, there is a sticky thread for reporting documentation bugs and in my experience they do get fixed pretty quickly. I encourage you to use it if you find mistakes or omissions. It can be quite cathartic if nothing else.

  7. #17
    Sencha User edspencer's Avatar
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    Ok - I'll try to take these in order

    Quote Originally Posted by skirtle View Post
    To summarize what I said there, I don't mind using a forum to report issues but not getting so much as an acknowledgement is not acceptable. Having someone confirm or refute an issue takes a few minutes, if it takes longer you can just ask for a better test case.

    Ignoring the annoying bugs and just doing fun features is what I expect from open source projects run by volunteers. Sencha is a commercial company and many of us have paid good money for their frameworks.

    I know they can't fix every bug quickly but I see no reason they can't do the initial processing of a bug report within 24 hours.
    I agree with the sentiment and wish it really was just a few minutes to check each bug. The new bug template helps there a lot but it's still very time consuming. Nevertheless, I agree that our response times here are not good enough and have followed up internally with the support team (they manage this forum) to ensure this is resolved.

    Quote Originally Posted by skirtle View Post
    So far no comment from Sencha on either this thread or my thread. I assume internal politics have kicked in because they can't all have failed to notice both threads.
    Absolutely not - it's more down to us being a very small team still and not being able to have eyes everywhere yet. I mentioned on a couple of other threads that we'll have a full time forum manager starting in about 3 weeks time so I expect our performance here will get a lot better.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrjoltcola View Post
    That is exactly it. I have multiple customers on sites I wrote with Ext 2 and 3. They are under maintenance mode. What happens when things break? Upgrade to 4.x? We don't have budget for some of it, considering each site uses custom workarounds for that version.

    It is a naive company and the sign of young developers that thinks it is good marketing to boast "Re-written from scratch!" That is ok in early versions. 4.0 is not an early version. It should be the version of maturity. Graduation from kindergarten. Ext have had plenty of time to get the architecture right. So rewriting it every major release shows "something" for sure, the inability to design elegant, long-term extensibility. Will 5.0 also get a "major revamp, reworked internals" just to get new customers?
    To be totally honest, we undertook too much re-architecting in 4.x. We looked at the 3.x framework and while it looked like it held together on the surface, the innards were in turmoil. This made it very hard to develop new features and to leverage the advances brought by Sencha Touch.

    I think we've got the architecture right in that very little will need to change in 5.x, but the cost was far higher than we would have liked. We've about to put out the 6th regular patch release for 4.0.x to address certain stability problems that we had when we shipped but far more importantly we've changed how we go about developing software. We learned a lot of painful lessons from 4.0 - we beat ourselves up every day that what should have been an immaculate release was tainted by these issues. All I can ask is that you trust me that things will get better in 4.0.6, 4.1.0 and beyond, and that we've taken our medicine on release planning so that we don't foul up like this next time.

    Quote Originally Posted by zombeerose View Post
    --RANT--
    I have been using ExtJS since early 2008 and I have to say that Ext 4 has been the most difficult and time-consuming major release as of yet. The compatibility files for migrating versions were helpful but incomplete. The product was released with considerable flaws, poor performance, a lack of complete documentation, and with some previously existing functionality removed (like tree editor).

    I took a leap of faith and was an early adopter of 4.x. I regret that move. I have been so consumed with the migration, differentiating my bugs from ExtJS, and fixing any lingering compatibility changes that I have not been able to incorporate new features, like charting. And where is the Visual Unit Testing framework that Ext was demoing?

    My product is so deeply vested into ExtJS that I can't consider switching. Please Sencha, get your act together (or bring back Jack)!

    --END RANT--

    Would love to hear Sencha respond to this thread. Otherwise, they can expect it will be an over-powering topic at SenchaCon.
    As above, I understand and agree with what you are saying. We're working really hard to put this right in 4.1. As an aside, Jack had a great vision starting Ext JS but hasn't been involved for more than 2 years. Our mistakes with 4.0 were our own, and we're going to fix them.

    Quote Originally Posted by skirtle View Post
    On a positive note, there is a sticky thread for reporting documentation bugs and in my experience they do get fixed pretty quickly. I encourage you to use it if you find mistakes or omissions. It can be quite cathartic if nothing else.
    Docs are one area that's really shown a lot of improvement and I'm glad that's coming across. I think our biggest problem as a company right now is our communication with our community and I have to emphasize - it's not that we don't care or want to know, it's because we're working like crazy on our product line and trying to catch up on the community communication side.

    I can't speak for the whole company but I can guarantee I'll go and kick the relevant people to get the communication flowing properly again. If you ever feel you're not being adequately served by us here please feel free to email me personally (ed @ sencha) and I'll do my best to help.
    Ext JS Senior Software Architect
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  8. #18
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    @edspencer
    Thank you for responding. Looking forward to the improvements and excited to hear about a dedicated forum manager.

    As they say - hindsight is 20/20.

  9. #19
    Sencha Premium Member skirtle's Avatar
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    Thanks Ed, much appreciate your feedback and there's a lot of positives in there.

    I have one thought in response to your comments over the time taken to reproduce bugs.

    I don't have much experience of reproducing the bugs reported in this forum but I have plenty of experience with reproducing problems reported in the help forums. In those forums, even without a template, I tend to find I can reproduce the problems reported very quickly, 5 minutes is not an exaggeration. Though this experience may not transfer across directly to the bugs forum, I wonder whether it might not help to time-box the initial assessment of a bug report to 10 minutes. If it can be reproduced in that time then it gets the acknowledgement that a well reported issue deserves. If it can't, it either gets commented as requiring more information or gets added to the list of issues to investigate when time allows.

    I feel this approach would be fair, time-effective and rewards well reported bugs.

    Thanks again for taking the time to comment.

  10. #20
    Sencha User edspencer's Avatar
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    @skirtle

    That's pretty similar to our process, though we have a couple of additions. Once we confirm a bug we create/import the test case into our repository so that the developer responsible can easily grab the issue, see it, fix it and confirm it, then later QA can confirm that it's still fixed. There are a couple of additional pieces of housekeeping that we then have to perform.

    Many of the bugs definitely are < 10 minute affairs, but they do frequently take longer. We have a separate team that finds and triages bugs so that the developers working on the product itself can use their time as efficiently as possible. The bugs forums are fairly bursty in volume but it's probably a full time job. We're filling out our headcount here and quickly as we can but obviously we have some growing pains.

    I'm totally open to suggestions on how we can do this better, just trying to share the challenges we face
    Ext JS Senior Software Architect
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